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Tov Rose: Hello?

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Tov Rose: Looks like you're muted, there you go.

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Bruce S.: I had to find a way to unmute myself.

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Tov Rose: That's alright. How are you, Bruce?

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Bruce S.: I'm not a, I'm not a person who uses Zoom very often.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, I've learned over the last few years. It's not something I really wanted to learn, but I did. It's actually been very helpful.

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Tov Rose: So, where are you from?

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Bruce S.: Well, I'm from Ohio, I'm a resident of South Carolina, but I'm living and working in Virginia.

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Bruce S.: Okay.

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Tov Rose: So, what… what has brought you all the way around that… from one place to another?

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Bruce S.: Hmm… 20 years, 9 months, and 3 days in the Army, and…

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Bruce S.: Gotcha. Then, since retiring in 2005,

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Bruce S.: Spending about 15 years working for the Army as a civilian and bouncing all over the world, so, yeah.

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Tov Rose: Got it.

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Tov Rose: God. I have met many similar people in similar situations over the years.

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Tov Rose: Including my own grandfather and an uncle.

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Bruce S.: God.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, my, my dad's dad was a World War II, fighter pilot.

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Tov Rose: And, stayed through the Korean War.

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Tov Rose: Actually, he fought in the Battle of Japan.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: He was highly decorated, and boy, did he tell stories.

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Tov Rose: And then one of my uncles, he, was actually in the Navy, and, stayed on afterwards as a civilian contractor.

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Tov Rose: mostly stationed in Hawaii. Told some really interesting stories about that.

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Tov Rose: I won't get into those here.

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Bruce S.: Especially not if you're recording, right?

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Tov Rose: Right, exactly.

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Tov Rose: So, we're supposed to have one other person join us tonight, but I don't know if he is or not. We'll wait around for a few minutes, I guess. What made you decide to join the Authentic Faith course?

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Bruce S.: Well, I've been on a kind of an interesting spiritual journey myself, you know, rediscovering the Hebrew roots of the faith, and how they contrast with a lot of the traditions of men that have been

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Bruce S.: passed down.

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Tov Rose: Yep.

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Bruce S.: And, yeah, we'll just leave it at that.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, yeah, the younger folks are calling it deconstruction.

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Bruce S.: Yeah, that's… that's the, you know, that's a word for it, you know, but I had a… I had an interesting career in the Army. I was an Army chaplain assistant.

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Tov Rose: Hmm, okay.

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Bruce S.: You know, so, you know, I had the,

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Bruce S.: I had the privilege of working with chaplains from a whole bunch of interesting faith backgrounds, and…

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Bruce S.: Including some who… Maybe didn't even have a faith.

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Tov Rose: Gotcha. Yeah, I was a… I was a corporate chaplain for many years.

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Bruce S.: Wow.

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Tov Rose: So, basically the same thing, just in the corporate world. Yeah. Very similar kind of stuff.

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Bruce S.: You know, like in any organization with, you know, with people, you know, you have some folks who are just absolute gems, and you have other people who are kind of lumps of coal.

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Bruce S.: Right.

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Tov Rose: Very true.

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Bruce S.: A diamond that has not yet been subjected to sufficient heat and pressure.

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Tov Rose: Right. Yeah, that analogy could go a long way.

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Tov Rose: Oh my gosh. So…

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Tov Rose: You probably have a few thoughts, like, what kind of things did you want to talk about, or what kind of issues were you thinking about? Subjects matter, that kind of stuff, bringing up?

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Bruce S.: Oh… I don't know, I'm waiting… I'm waiting for the hard copy books to arrive.

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Tov Rose: Gotcha, cool! I'm glad you got the hard copies. Cool.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, a lot of… a lot of people like the hard copies.

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Tov Rose: Especially if you're… if they're over 30 years old.

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Bruce S.: Well, I mean, I have a lot of books, and in fact, I think I have… I think I have the Kindle version, but…

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Tov Rose: Yeah.

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Bruce S.: You know, but I just… I just like paper.

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Bruce S.: I like to be able to sit down with paper and a highlighter.

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Tov Rose: Yep.

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Bruce S.: And, you know, and read, and then stick little post-it note flags and things that I want to read again.

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Tov Rose: Oh yeah, I get it. So, have you, Sam, have you looked at the Kindle version at all? For the Bible?

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Bruce S.: I, I have…

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Tov Rose: Going to the.

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Bruce S.: I have a lot of books that I accumulated in the Kindle version while working on my doctoral reshertation that haven't yet been read.

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Tov Rose: Gotcha.

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Bruce S.: I'm finally at the point where I'm beginning to catch up on my reading and do things which are more important and less urgent.

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Tov Rose: Fair. Alright.

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Bruce S.: risks.

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Tov Rose: I don't know if you've, have you ever heard of, oh my gosh, I have, like, totally forgotten names all of a sudden. About to come out of my mouth, and suddenly it's gone. Dr. Daniel Juster. Have you ever heard the name Dr. Daniel Jester? He's a messianic theologian.

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Bruce S.: I have not. No? Okay.

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Tov Rose: Let me think here, I'm… I gotta look, there's another name I'm trying to think of, and I'm…

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Tov Rose: Kind of…

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Tov Rose: Hold on, just a second, let me pull this up. It's another one that might be of interest if you're…

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Tov Rose: If this subject is resonating with you.

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Bruce S.: I mean, yeah, so, so, so some of the, some of the, the people who have been,

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Bruce S.: Catalysts along the way.

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Bruce S.: You, you may be familiar with Michael Rood.

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Tov Rose: Oh, yes.

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Bruce S.: Yeah, you know, Michael Rood, Alan McGuire, Hemia Gordon.

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Bruce S.: you know, all folks whose, you know, I've read a lot of the material, watched a lot of their material, and that kind of spurred me to begin doing some of my own study.

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Tov Rose: Okay, have you ever… have you ever heard of Dr. Jeffrey Sein?

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Bruce S.: I've heard of, Dr. Sykes, but haven't read or seen any of his material.

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Tov Rose: He's… he's one of the leading, messianic Bible scholars in the world today.

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Tov Rose: That and his… his wife, Dr. Barry Sy, is also up there with us, one of those, one of those very esteemed, scholars.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: In her own right.

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Tov Rose: I know Dr. Seif teaches at the King's University.

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Tov Rose: In Dallas, he also teaches at Christ for the Nations Institute.

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Tov Rose: And he started a number of different… schools over the years.

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Tov Rose: Fascinating guy. Do you remember Zola Levitt?

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Bruce S.: Did you?

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Tov Rose: Did you ever see the TV show Zola Levitt?

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Bruce S.: No.

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Tov Rose: Okay, that was going back to the 90s. But he would… he… at the time, Zola was a Bible scholar, one of the first who had a TV show, who happened to be Jewish and believed in Jesus.

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Tov Rose: And when he passed away, Dr. Seif took over.

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Bruce S.: Oh.

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Tov Rose: and really helped build the platform that he has today. So, yeah, I really… these are the kinds of guys I…

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Tov Rose: I've been blessed to get to know a little bit over the years. Have you researched anything, or come across the research of Dr. John Salehammer?

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Bruce S.: No.

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Tov Rose: It's another one you might want to consider. He is… he was one of my mentors. When he was alive, he was one of the top 10 Hebrew scholars in the world.

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Tov Rose: And what made him unique was his focus on the Masoretic

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Tov Rose: punctuation points in the Masoretic text. He studied how the Masoretes

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Tov Rose: Influenced interpretation of the text using their vowel system.

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Tov Rose: And he was so good at it that one of the Masoretic families

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Tov Rose: that still exists today, made him an honorary Masorette.

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Tov Rose: And so that's actually how I got started, doing the research that I do.

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Tov Rose: I had actually come to him one day after kind of ruminating on this concept for about 10 years. I was taking a class with him. Actually, it was at the end of a year of classes with him. And I said, yeah, I wanna… I wanna… I wanna present something to you. I said, take a look at these… these two vowel points.

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Tov Rose: Or these two vowel… Pointings that are… systems that are used.

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Bruce S.: Right.

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Tov Rose: regarding the divine name. So, let's just look at these letters.

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Bruce S.: That they put there.

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Tov Rose: For the divine name in most instances, if you were to pronounce it as written, you would say Yehovah.

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Bruce S.: Right?

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Tov Rose: in the minority of situations in Scripture, mostly in the book of Ezekiel,

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Tov Rose: If you were to pronounce it as written, which nobody does, you would say Yehovie.

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Tov Rose: And so I said, You, expert in Masoretic theology, why did the Masoretes

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Tov Rose: But two different vowel pointings with the divine name.

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Tov Rose: What was their theology behind that? And he looked at me and he said, I have no idea, and neither does anybody else. Nobody has ever researched that. You should do a doctorate on that.

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Bruce S.: Mmm.

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Tov Rose: And thus began another 17 years of research.

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Bruce S.: And…

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Tov Rose: And what I discovered, short version of it, is that they didn't invent anything new.

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Tov Rose: what they did was they cataloged some… a theology that was already in existence, that was started by Ezra the Scribe.

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Tov Rose: And that is documented today, still.

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Tov Rose: in the Targum translations of the Bible.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: which are the authoritative, original Aramaic translations.

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Tov Rose: And…

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Bruce S.: Okay.

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Tov Rose: what one does is, when you're reading through the Targums.

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Tov Rose: the majority of the time, when it would otherwise be pronounced Yehovie.

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Tov Rose: They identify that as the Word of God.

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Bruce S.: What the fuck?

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Tov Rose: The other times, the minority, they identify that as

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Tov Rose: Father God, who is a spirit who never gets up off His throne.

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Tov Rose: And instead, sends the Word to go and accomplish things on his behalf.

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Tov Rose: And interact with creation, and be seen, and operate in signs and miracles and wonders.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, so…

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Bruce S.: Oh, that's fascinating, yeah.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, so I ended… that's why… so I ended up writing my book, Jesus, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That's basically the introduction to my dissertation.

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Tov Rose: But I wrote it in a down-to-earth way that anybody could understand it. And that really is the theological foundation of the Bible translation, the New Messianic Version.

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Bruce S.: Huh.

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Tov Rose: So, just a little bit about where I'm coming from, so…

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Bruce S.: No, that… that's really eliminating.

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Tov Rose: Thank you.

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Tov Rose: My… my whole… my whole premise for everything that I teach around the Bible is, let's look at the scriptures through a 1st century, second temple perspective.

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Tov Rose: Let's remove everything else that came later.

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Tov Rose: There might be good stuff there, but let's just remove it for a moment.

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Tov Rose: And let's see what it is that the Bible writers themselves, especially the New Testament writers, were actually saying in their culture, in their context.

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Bruce S.: Yup.

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Tov Rose: So, yeah, that was kind of… that's been kind of my deconstruction along the way, because, you know, even I've picked up stuff from Churchianity over… even though I'm Jewish, most of my… most of my experience has been interacting with Christians over the last 30 years.

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Bruce S.: Yeah, one, one thing that, that I thought was kind of interesting, looking at the, at the NMV.

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Bruce S.: Specifically looking at Matthew and the genealogies.

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Bruce S.: Is that… is that the…

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Bruce S.: if I recall correctly, the checksum issue of, you know, how many generations you have

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Bruce S.: isn't corrected in the NMV.

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Tov Rose: No. Yeah. That's wrong.

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Bruce S.: You know, but… but there's some recent research documented by, you know, among others, Namia Gordon, you know, who himself is… is… is not a messianic Jew. Right. You know, but… but him, Dr. Miles Jones, and some of the others who have looked at the, at the Hebrew

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Bruce S.: copies of Matthew that have been, the many copies that have recently been unearthed.

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Tov Rose: Right?

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Bruce S.: You know, and the fact that, you know, in fact, She…

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Bruce S.: that the English translations of Matthew confuse the word… confuse Mary's genealogy in Matthew.

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Bruce S.: And they say the husband of Mary, whereas the word is really the father of Mary.

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Tov Rose: Right.

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Bruce S.: which would… which would correctly… which… which, if correctly translated, restores the checksum, and… and also addresses the… the actual physical genealogy that Yeshua would have to have to be the, you know, the king.

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Tov Rose: That's right.

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Bruce S.: Exactly. So I just thought it was interesting that you had not addressed or corrected that in the NMV, because the, you know, the lack of a correct genealogical descent is an obstacle to many Jews understanding or accepting him as Messiah.

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Tov Rose: You are correct. There's many things we didn't… I didn't correct in it for that.

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Bruce S.: Yep, that's fine.

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Tov Rose: Coming… that's coming in, in, supposed to be… that's scheduled for the second edition.

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Bruce S.: Okay.

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Tov Rose: Which is taking me forever to finish, because I really need to hire a couple other scholars to help me finish, flush some things out that I'm not as expert on as they would be.

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Bruce S.: You know, but I mean, that might be one of those… might be one of those places where you go draw in some of those other experts who are… who don't even have a dog in that fight, folks like Nehemia Gordon.

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Tov Rose: Yeah.

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Bruce S.: Whose interest is, you know, is in textual criticism, as opposed.

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Tov Rose: Right?

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Bruce S.: You know, as opposed to…

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Bruce S.: You know, trying to assert a particular theological viewpoint.

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Tov Rose: Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. Yeah, he and I have talked occasionally, it's been a while.

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Tov Rose: And then… and then Mr. Jones has tried to reach out to me several times, but it's never worked out with my schedule.

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Bruce S.: Well, you know, he just recently had a stroke.

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Tov Rose: Did he really? I didn't even hear that.

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Bruce S.: He did, yes. He just recently had a stroke, within the last week, I think.

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Tov Rose: Oh, my gosh.

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Bruce S.: And, so, you know, you… Indeed.

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Bruce S.: You know, where it is that he's gotten treatment, and they're, they're, you know, hopeful that he'll be able to make a full recovery, but yeah, he's just recently had a stroke, so…

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Tov Rose: Yeah, thanks for letting me know. I may want to reach out to him.

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Bruce S.: Yeah, yeah.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, I know one of my,

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Tov Rose: One of my other… this is a guy you've never heard of, because he's really off.

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Bruce S.: Wow.

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Tov Rose: off the, not on the internet at all, but there's a… an archaeologic… archaeology… he's not an archaeologist, but he's an expert, subject matter expert, who pulls together,

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Tov Rose: Different archaeologists and agencies.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: Especially those based in Israel. His name is Lyle Anderson.

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Tov Rose: like I said, I don't think you'll find anything about him on the internet, I never have.

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Bruce S.: But I… but I know him personally. This is the guy who…

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Tov Rose: Unsuccessfully tried to…

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Tov Rose: make, 16 sites in Israel where Jesus really walked and did his ministry. Like, not the ones the Catholic Church and other churches say are, but the actual sites, right? He tried to make those part of a World Heritage Park with the United Nations.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: And because of the… the anti-Semitism at the United Nations level, they said, no, we don't have anything to do with it. We're not gonna… we're not gonna do this. But he's been working behind the scenes to continue working on that, project. So, he…

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Tov Rose: is… so anyway, I've been talking to him a lot. Whenever I have Bible questions, he's the one I go to.

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Bruce S.: Oh, my.

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Tov Rose: Because he has access to especially the latest research.

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Tov Rose: And archaeology, 1st century history, 2nd century of Judaism, through the 6th century is really my sweet spot. I love that stuff.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: So it's like, most people don't know that… that, there were…

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Tov Rose: there were messianic towns and villages in the Northern Galilee.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: Up until the 6th century.

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Tov Rose: And they weren't even totally wiped out until… until Islam came in and conquered.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: And then, for the most part, they ended up still staying there, all those people, and that's why most of the… if you… for those who have done doing DNA studies of Palestinians, most of them actually have Jewish lineage.

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Bruce S.: Yeah.

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Tov Rose: It's just a very strange…

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Bruce S.: Strange world.

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Tov Rose: Where all these old tribal relationships are all still there.

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Tov Rose: So, what questions do you have for me? We can just start there.

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Bruce S.: Oh, yeah. Well, I already asked a couple.

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Tov Rose: No, no, no! What else you got? Get to know you a little bit more, figure out where we can go from here, going forward. It'll help me out a little bit.

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Bruce S.: Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I'm a… yeah, I'm a bit of a… I'm a bit of a character that.

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Tov Rose: You know, oh, you know.

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Bruce S.: I have a…

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Bruce S.: I have a little… I have a little lapel button stuck on my bulletin board that says, you know, that little, you know, that little voice inside your head that tells you you probably shouldn't say something?

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Bruce S.: No, I don't have one of those.

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Tov Rose: I love that.

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Bruce S.: You know, or, or as… or as one of my, one of my, my favorite, garrison commanders of all time, used to tell me, she says, Snow Deal, you, you are,

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Bruce S.: You're long on candor and short on tact sometimes.

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Tov Rose: Love it. Love it.

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Tov Rose: Sounds like… that's about how my wife describes my social media.

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Bruce S.: You know, but being a government employee, I don't really have social media to speak of.

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Tov Rose: That makes sense.

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Bruce S.: You know, my dog posts more than I do.

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Tov Rose: Nice.

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Tov Rose: Alright. So, let me… let me ask a couple questions. How much do you know about,

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Tov Rose: the… how the canon of Scripture was created.

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Bruce S.: More than I wish to.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, okay, alright. I know it's a big.

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Bruce S.: subject.

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Tov Rose: Right?

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Bruce S.: You know, yeah, in my, in my reading material that I have, have looked at, you know, some of the, some of it are some of the, you know, the…

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Bruce S.: The records of some of the, the various councils.

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Bruce S.: That met, and came up with various decisions about.

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Bruce S.: So, what wasn't considered canon.

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Tov Rose: Right, it's a very interesting conversation, Sneaky.

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Bruce S.: Yeah, but, let's see, other, other interesting bits about me. Raised in a…

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Bruce S.: in a, in a… in one of the, one of the, you know, 31 flavors of Baptist Church.

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Tov Rose: Alright.

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Bruce S.: You know, I was raised in a GARB, General Association of Regular Baptists.

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Tov Rose: I've spoken at a few of those churches.

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Bruce S.: You know, and, and, and during my,

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Bruce S.: during my time as an Army chaplain assistant, whenever I ran into a GARB chaplain, I'd say, oh, yeah, I grew up in a GARB church, and they'd say, well, are you GARB now? It's like, no. And I'd say, well, what happened? I said, well, I became a Christian.

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Bruce S.: And they're like, what? Oh, oh, no, no, no, I joined a Christian and Missionary Alliance church after their jaw hit the floor.

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Tov Rose: Oh, that's funny.

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Bruce S.: you know.

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Bruce S.: But again, being raised in a JARB church, and my, you know, my first study Bible was, was a Schofield reference Bible, which is,

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Bruce S.: You know, shall we say, strongly dispensational.

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Bruce S.: Yeah. You know, and folks were raised to read Schofield's notes as if they were gospel

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Bruce S.: You know, I grew out of that.

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Tov Rose: They're kind of like, kind of like the Dakespe people.

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Bruce S.: Yeah, yeah, you know, so…

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Bruce S.: you know, that was, you know, that was interesting. You know, spent a lot of my adult life a member of Christian Missionary Alliance Church, which is kind of interesting, because the Christian Missionary Alliance is kind of like a non-denominational denomination.

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Bruce S.: You know, it was never… it didn't set out to be a denomination, it was a, you know, a…

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Bruce S.: You know, started out as a multi-denominational mission organization that pretty much found that they needed to be a denomination to do some of the things that they needed to do, like, chaplains and things like that, but… but…

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Bruce S.: You know, but they have kind of a broad tant, and it was like, you know, on…

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Bruce S.: Essential things unity on non-essential things, charity, and you… you walk into a Christian missionary-wise church, and you, you could typically… could walk into church and talk to people, and you could say, oh, you know, well, what…

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Bruce S.: you know, what denomination are you? Oh, well, you know, I'm Baptist, or I'm Catholic, or I'm this, or I'm that, you know, where are you a member? Oh, I'm a member here, right? Yeah, because they…

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Bruce S.: You know, they would retain whatever label they picked up culturally and grew up with, Yeah.

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Bruce S.: But that would… but they fellowshipped within the Christian Missionary Alliance.

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Bruce S.: So that was a, you know, that was, I guess, a step along my, my faith journey, was to… to recognize that, you know, people come from different.

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Bruce S.: Cultural traditions, or denominational traditions, but… but those things that… those things that cause people to adhere to one label or another.

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Bruce S.: and divide over labels, are not based in Scripture.

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Tov Rose: Yeah.

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Bruce S.: But they're based in, you know, in human reason.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, more often than not. Yep, exactly.

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Bruce S.: Exactly.

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Bruce S.: You know, but… but even… but even… even the Christian Missionary Alliance still, you know, like most…

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Bruce S.: Protestant churches, you know, still cling to

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Bruce S.: things that were introduced by Constantine and, and

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Bruce S.: and embedded within the Roman Catholic Church, including

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Bruce S.: you know, the Catholic Church saying, hey, we took it on our authority to move the sanctity of the Sabbath from the seventh day to, you know, to the first day of the week, and it's like, wait a minute.

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Tov Rose: Yep.

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Bruce S.: Didn't Moses say something about that?

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Tov Rose: Yes, he did.

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Tov Rose: Yes, he did.

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Bruce S.: People who would think to change the times and the seasons are like, wait a minute here…

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Bruce S.: Exactly. Yeah, no, okay, you know, so, you know, so you, you, you've gone from…

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Bruce S.: you know, from Jesus, you know, preaching against the talking out of the Pharisees to.

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Bruce S.: the most of modern Christianity following the Takanote of Constantine.

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Bruce S.: Right. Even those who claim to be Protestant.

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Tov Rose: That's right.

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Bruce S.: So, you know, that was, that was kind of a revelation.

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Tov Rose: Yep. Yep. One of the things that I know

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Tov Rose: opened my mind was when I was… I was studying with, with Sailhammer.

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Tov Rose: And he started going over the different canons of Scripture in one of his classes.

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Tov Rose: And he said, did you know that the 66 books of the Protestant Bible aren't the only books of the Bible recognized by other church traditions in the world today?

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Tov Rose: Or even in ancient times. And a lot… a bunch of the people who are… it was at a Baptist, Southern Baptist seminary, and… and he… everybody in the class was like, no, that's not true! Or… or… you're kidding. A couple of us Jewish guys looked at us and said, yeah, and?

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Tov Rose: Yeah, of course.

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Tov Rose: Like, the Ethiopian Bible has…

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Tov Rose: who has it, 80 books? 81 books? The… yeah, there's a… and there's… and there's other traditions. I don't remember what the Syriac has.

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Tov Rose: I think it was 78, 76, something like that. But yeah, the,

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Tov Rose: These… it was these church traditions that decided.

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Tov Rose: which books were going to be in the Bible and which ones weren't. And then there's the Jewish traditions, which themselves are very different.

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Tov Rose: And it's changed over time.

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Tov Rose: As well. Like, the, the Bible that Ezra put together.

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Tov Rose: Was… it was in a slightly different order of the books than is what is… than what's used today.

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Tov Rose: And… the, the Septuagint, which was written about 230 years before Jesus, has additional books.

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Tov Rose: And some of those books are also included in the Catholic canon.

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Tov Rose: So, people, yeah, people don't understand the…

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Tov Rose: the fighting over all of this stuff. Like, the, the book of, of Ruth was a big fight within the Jewish community.

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Tov Rose: after 200 AD, whether or not it should really even be in the Bible, and it should be included, because it never… in the… in the Hebrew version, never mentions God, but in the Septuagint, it does. There's an additional chapter, so…

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Tov Rose: And so it was a huge debate over that kind of thing as well. Like, should we… we can't use this… we can't use the Koine Judeo-Greek translation. We have to use Hebrew, so we can't really count it, but eventually… eventually she won. She's in the Bible.

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Tov Rose: Yeah.

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Tov Rose: Most… one of the things that Salehammer used to talk to us about was… was how… Communities…

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Tov Rose: shape scriptures.

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Tov Rose: Knowingly or unknowingly.

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Tov Rose: And so the texts are like a living being that gets shaped by that living community, and so you have some things that are added, some things that are subtracted. For the most part, it's the same across the board.

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Tov Rose: But they over… everybody wants to put their own little fingerprint on it, an interpretation on it, over the course of centuries.

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Tov Rose: It's not a bad thing. At least we know the origins, and we can track a lot of that stuff now, through forensic analysis.

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Bruce S.: Which was helpful.

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Bruce S.: Yeah, and I think that's… and that's… yeah, that's one of the… that's one of the things that is… that I found fascinating about some of the work that Emmy and Gordon has been doing.

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Bruce S.: Yeah.

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Tov Rose: Yeah.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, one of my… one of my, I call them partners in crime.

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Tov Rose: when it comes to… when it comes to, Bible scholarship is, Dr. R. David Pitcher.

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Bruce S.: Oh.

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Tov Rose: he, I think, at last count, he's written 40 books.

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Tov Rose: I think, that's a guess. You can find almost all of them on Amazon, though. So our David Pitcher, Dr. Pitcher, I've actually known him for about 12 years, I want to say now?

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Tov Rose: And when I first came across David, he was…

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Tov Rose: recent… had… about 10 years before, he had retired from, from, from the Army.

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Tov Rose: I hope I got that right, it might have been the Navy. It's kind of…

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Tov Rose: he was a doctor. I can't remember which branch he was in right now. But he… he was the head of the VA

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Tov Rose: orthopedic… Department of Orthopedics in Florida.

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Tov Rose: And…

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Tov Rose: He… one day, he was going to church, and he was just praying, and he really felt like the Lord was telling him to study Greek.

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Tov Rose: So here he is, retired, he's, like, 65 years, 68 years old, and he's like.

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Tov Rose: God wants me to go back to Greek, darling! Go back to school and learn Greek. And she's like, well, if God's told you to do it, you should do it.

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Tov Rose: But he goes back to school, he gets a degree in Greek.

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Tov Rose: and starts reading the Old Testament in Greek, and the New Testament in Greek, and realizes they're the exact same dialect.

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Tov Rose: that's specific to the Jewish community.

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Tov Rose: Which the Jewish community knows.

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Tov Rose: Even it's not mostly… pretty much not acknowledged. And he started seeing patterns.

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Tov Rose: The specific pattern he was seeing was how

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Tov Rose: the principles of Rabbi Hillel the Great, for Bible interpretation, Midrash, Midrashic interpretation, and also the

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Tov Rose: I'm trying to remember the name of the guy who followed him up about 100 years later, I want to say Rabbi Shamai. I believe that's right, I have to look it up. There was… who added, like, 3 additional

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Tov Rose: interpretive methods that are subcategories of Hillels. But he realized that the New Testament was using those.

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Tov Rose: The writers were using those things extensively.

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Tov Rose: But there was only… there was less than 40 books or articles over the last 120 years that even addressed that topic.

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Bruce S.: Well, sure, because… because the… because the, you know, the Greco-Roman church doesn't want to admit that… that Rabbi Shaul, who they like to call Paul, was a Jewish rabbi.

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Tov Rose: Back question.

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Bruce S.: He was a Jewish rabbi.

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Tov Rose: Exactly, and he wasn't just any Jewish rabbi.

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Bruce S.: Yeah, he was like the top of the class.

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Tov Rose: He was! He was.

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Bruce S.: He was a student of Rabbi Hillel's grandson.

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Bruce S.: Yeah.

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Tov Rose: Yeah, so… so David started cataloging the… or comparing Old Testament books

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Tov Rose: to New Testament… to the New Testament letters that Paul wrote.

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Tov Rose: And so far, has confirmed… forensically.

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Tov Rose: that 7 of his letters are in-order commentaries of 7 Old Testament books.

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Bruce S.: Why not?

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Tov Rose: Exactly! It's like, Paul used those seven Old Testament books as the template for writing his letters, even though he wrote those letters to Gentiles. Except for one.

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Tov Rose: And he… and David is the only person

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Tov Rose: Whoever took the time to do a forensic analysis of the book of Hebrews.

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Tov Rose: And compare the writing style to Paul's writing style.

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Bruce S.: Hmm.

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Tov Rose: And so, forensically, he can prove that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews.

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Tov Rose: It's just the difference between, you know, the book of Galatians is like a 6th grade level, whereas the book of Hebrews is, like, postdoctoral dissertation.

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Tov Rose: But the same person.

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Tov Rose: So that's the… so I actually… I am a research fellow with the Bible Institute that

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Tov Rose: that David helped found.

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Tov Rose: It's called the Institute of Midrashic Studies of the New Testament.

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Bruce S.: Oh, okay.

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Tov Rose: And what I think is really…

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Tov Rose: an interesting open door, and is that the sponsor, the financial sponsor for the institute, the primary sponsor, there's always… there's grants that come in from different places, but the primary organizer-sponsor is a Jewish rabbi who lives near Hebron.

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Bruce S.: Really?

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Tov Rose: An Orthodox Jewish rabbi.

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Tov Rose: And you know why he got involved?

377

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Tov Rose: It's because…

378

00:43:29.180 --> 00:43:40.670

Tov Rose: He believes that this kind of academic research is the perfect bridge between Jews and Christians to help combat anti-Semitism.

379

00:43:41.860 --> 00:43:43.360

Bruce S.: Well, he's not wrong.

380

00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:44.290

Tov Rose: He's not!

381

00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:47.740

Tov Rose: It's not at all.

382

00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:55.320

Tov Rose: And I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with Orthodox rabbis I can't tell you the names of.

383

00:43:57.150 --> 00:44:02.320

Tov Rose: who are… some of them, a few of them are pretty famous in Jewish circles.

384

00:44:02.490 --> 00:44:04.130

Tov Rose: And who have said to me, listen.

385

00:44:05.390 --> 00:44:08.169

Tov Rose: I… I… I no longer call…

386

00:44:08.390 --> 00:44:12.879

Tov Rose: Paul, the creator of a new religion. I call him Rabbi Shaul.

387

00:44:14.950 --> 00:44:17.120

Tov Rose: And I can never admit.

388

00:44:18.190 --> 00:44:22.179

Tov Rose: that Jesus is the Messiah. But when Messiah comes, I know it'll be Him.

389

00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:26.310

Bruce S.: Yeah.

390

00:44:29.810 --> 00:44:34.270

Tov Rose: So, academic research has become a way to share

391

00:44:35.080 --> 00:44:39.729

Tov Rose: To help… these people are opening up New Testaments for themselves for the first time.

392

00:44:40.650 --> 00:44:47.199

Tov Rose: Because they're fascinated with the concept of Midrash, their own Bible interpretation methods.

393

00:44:48.060 --> 00:44:50.259

Tov Rose: That we're finding extensively in the text.

394

00:44:55.990 --> 00:45:03.999

Bruce S.: Yeah, yeah, on that, yeah, I mean, on that… on that topic, one book that I recently read, I don't know if you've seen.

395

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:06.750

Tov Rose: It's kind of going in and out with your background.

396

00:45:06.750 --> 00:45:10.750

Bruce S.: We can give my background to stop here.

397

00:45:10.990 --> 00:45:12.729

Bruce S.: Maybe it'll stop. There we go.

398

00:45:14.310 --> 00:45:16.960

Tov Rose: Oh, hold on, I gotta make this bigger, I can't think I can'.

399

00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:18.239

Bruce S.: Let's see this, unless I make.

400

00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:20.029

Tov Rose: This thing big around my skin.

401

00:45:20.030 --> 00:45:21.430

Bruce S.: Right, it's clear.

402

00:45:21.430 --> 00:45:24.949

Tov Rose: There we go, Romans… what is this… what is this…

403

00:45:24.950 --> 00:45:28.850

Bruce S.: It's Roman's A Cult to Belong, by Alan.

404

00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:35.069

Bruce S.: Oh, okay. I mean, his whole premise is that

405

00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:46.070

Bruce S.: you know, the Greco-Roman interpretation of the Romans Being, you know, anti… anti-Jewish.

406

00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:47.830

Tov Rose: Oh my gosh, right,

407

00:45:47.830 --> 00:45:59.950

Bruce S.: You know, of reading sections that say, well, you know, don't let anybody condemn you on account of a, you know, of a day, or a feast, or, you know, or whatnot, you know.

408

00:46:00.540 --> 00:46:05.839

Bruce S.: You know, that means that people shouldn't condemn you for not following.

409

00:46:06.180 --> 00:46:06.840

Tov Rose: Christ.

410

00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:12.549

Bruce S.: You know, whereas, you know, he says, you know, look, when you look at this contextually.

411

00:46:12.700 --> 00:46:23.439

Bruce S.: And you understand the context in which Rabbi Shaul was writing, and who he was writing it to, what they're insisting it says is the exact opposite.

412

00:46:23.710 --> 00:46:26.170

Bruce S.: Exactly. He was…

413

00:46:26.170 --> 00:46:26.850

Tov Rose: Exactly.

414

00:46:26.850 --> 00:46:34.730

Bruce S.: he was… he was saying, hey, don't let anybody condemn you for keeping the Sabbath and following the feasts.

415

00:46:34.730 --> 00:46:35.630

Tov Rose: That's right.

416

00:46:36.160 --> 00:46:36.979

Tov Rose: That's right.

417

00:46:36.980 --> 00:46:47.390

Bruce S.: You know, and so that's, you know, his premise. You know, Romans, A Call to Belong was a call to the Gentiles to belong to Greater Israel.

418

00:46:48.260 --> 00:46:49.010

Tov Rose: That's right.

419

00:46:49.010 --> 00:46:57.249

Bruce S.: And not the creation of a new religion, which essentially is saying the same thing that the rabbi had told you.

420

00:46:57.250 --> 00:46:59.030

Tov Rose: Exactly. Exactly.

421

00:46:59.030 --> 00:47:03.820

Bruce S.: So, you know, that's Ellen Aguir's, premise.

422

00:47:04.370 --> 00:47:05.610

Tov Rose: Yep.

423

00:47:06.020 --> 00:47:07.870

Tov Rose: Yeah, I get myself in trouble.

424

00:47:08.620 --> 00:47:12.620

Tov Rose: A lot, talking to some groups of people.

425

00:47:13.050 --> 00:47:16.270

Tov Rose: Especially if they're from a Reformed theology perspective.

426

00:47:18.580 --> 00:47:28.130

Tov Rose: Because when I address the book of Romans… so, I know the book of Romans from research is actually an in-order commentary of Leviticus.

427

00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:38.430

Tov Rose: So Paul took the most Jewish of Jewish books and used it as his template for writing the book of Romans.

428

00:47:38.740 --> 00:47:42.510

Tov Rose: See, he wouldn't have done that if he was going to write Jewish people out of the story.

429

00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:44.180

Bruce S.: Including himself.

430

00:47:47.190 --> 00:47:58.380

Tov Rose: And I'd like… and I'd like to point out something that most scholars and teachers don't necessarily reference or acknowledge. If you look at the… at just Romans 1,

431

00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:01.380

Tov Rose: the first chapter.

432

00:48:01.790 --> 00:48:07.790

Tov Rose: The first half of the chapter, he's… he's really just being very…

433

00:48:07.990 --> 00:48:15.580

Tov Rose: favorable, he's loading on blessing, he's commenting kindly, he's praying.

434

00:48:15.930 --> 00:48:17.420

Tov Rose: Until he gets to verse 16.

435

00:48:19.610 --> 00:48:24.950

Tov Rose: And then there's this switch, and it's a clue in the language.

436

00:48:25.890 --> 00:48:31.040

Tov Rose: Like, the Gospel is to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

437

00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:45.199

Tov Rose: After that point, he's actually using the same kind of language that he does when he later, in another book, refers to himself and the third person being caught up into heaven.

438

00:48:45.960 --> 00:49:01.669

Tov Rose: He says, I knew a man once who was caught up into heaven, whether he was there in person, or it was a vision, or… you're not gonna… okay, he goes to do this whole story. He's using the same kind of colloquial language for the rest of Chapter 1.

439

00:49:03.130 --> 00:49:14.910

Tov Rose: He's talking about the Romans specifically in the third person. He is calling out their absolutely every evil, despicable, sinful thing they're doing.

440

00:49:15.770 --> 00:49:17.110

Tov Rose: as Christians.

441

00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:35.250

Tov Rose: while condemning Jews and saying that they replaced Jews, the Jewish people in God's plan. And his foundational, final, biggest argument is Romans 11, where he says, if God could cut them off.

442

00:49:37.660 --> 00:49:42.550

Bruce S.: That's right, if he can cut them off, who are the natural branches?

443

00:49:42.550 --> 00:49:47.500

Tov Rose: If your arrogance towards them, He'll cut you off, too.

444

00:49:51.250 --> 00:49:57.140

Tov Rose: So repent! And then from Romans 12 on, he's, come back into unity, please.

445

00:49:58.540 --> 00:50:03.249

Bruce S.: Well, yeah, I mean, he's condemning their anomianism.

446

00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:04.270

Tov Rose: That's right.

447

00:50:04.940 --> 00:50:10.999

Tov Rose: That's the official term, yes, the legal… theological term, yes.

448

00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:14.330

Bruce S.: And he's calling them back to Torah.

449

00:50:14.640 --> 00:50:15.210

Tov Rose: Yep.

450

00:50:15.340 --> 00:50:16.140

Tov Rose: Yes!

451

00:50:16.910 --> 00:50:30.320

Tov Rose: He is. And when I talk to people, and I try… I purposely try to cut to the chase, I say, listen, the book of Romans was Paul's surgical strike to destroy

452

00:50:31.070 --> 00:50:36.600

Tov Rose: replacement theology, supersessionism, when it was born in Rome.

453

00:50:39.290 --> 00:50:45.820

Tov Rose: It didn't work! We're living with it today, even in the children and the daughters of the Protestants.

454

00:50:46.450 --> 00:50:48.740

Tov Rose: And all the other variations.

455

00:50:50.240 --> 00:50:54.240

Tov Rose: It's still something that we're constantly having to battle against.

456

00:50:58.060 --> 00:50:58.830

Tov Rose: Yeah.

457

00:50:59.010 --> 00:51:10.389

Tov Rose: So… which is where I… which is probably why you're here, is one of the things that attracted you, to what I teach, is the whole concept of.

458

00:51:11.460 --> 00:51:17.900

Tov Rose: if you strip away all this Rome and other org… other Christian…

459

00:51:18.150 --> 00:51:24.009

Tov Rose: thought and theologies applied. If you strip all those away, what was there first?

460

00:51:25.410 --> 00:51:28.470

Tov Rose: Because when Rome divorced itself.

461

00:51:29.120 --> 00:51:38.200

Tov Rose: from the Jewish believers in Jesus, and all the Christians who practice those Jewish lifestyle, and those Jewish things.

462

00:51:39.810 --> 00:51:44.510

Tov Rose: Along with that divorce, got thrown out a whole bunch of theological understanding.

463

00:51:44.670 --> 00:51:53.069

Tov Rose: and concepts that had to be replaced with something else to explain the scripture verses.

464

00:51:55.530 --> 00:52:00.630

Tov Rose: And that's where a lot of very strange things came from over the centuries.

465

00:52:00.630 --> 00:52:06.820

Bruce S.: Oh, well, well, sure, because the replacement was in the form of isagesis.

466

00:52:06.820 --> 00:52:07.610

Tov Rose: Yes.

467

00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:08.900

Tov Rose: Exactly.

468

00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:15.519

Bruce S.: You know, was to, you know, to make the scriptures say what

469

00:52:16.080 --> 00:52:26.190

Bruce S.: what Rome wanted out of adopting Christianity as the state religion, and what they… what they wanted was political unity.

470

00:52:26.540 --> 00:52:27.140

Tov Rose: Right.

471

00:52:27.370 --> 00:52:39.699

Bruce S.: You know, they wanted to use religion as a tool to achieve political stability, political unity. They didn't particularly care, or I don't believe actually believe.

472

00:52:40.680 --> 00:52:47.050

Bruce S.: in, in scriptural truth. It was, it was, it was very much,

473

00:52:47.570 --> 00:52:57.990

Bruce S.: You know, what we run into today with the, you know, what's our national religion? People say, what's a Christian? America's a Christian nation! No, it isn't.

474

00:52:58.200 --> 00:53:06.580

Bruce S.: It may have started that way, but, you know, but no, it isn't. It's like, well, you know, what is the national religion? Well, it's secular humanism.

475

00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:07.600

Tov Rose: Tripe.

476

00:53:07.720 --> 00:53:21.089

Bruce S.: Right? And secular humanism is an atheistic religion. That's right. But it's an atheistic religion that at its heart.

477

00:53:21.600 --> 00:53:32.610

Bruce S.: says that you are your own God, there are no… there is no higher moral authority, there is no absolute right and absolute wrong, except for what you decide.

478

00:53:33.130 --> 00:53:34.330

Bruce S.: Right or wrong.

479

00:53:34.330 --> 00:53:34.990

Tov Rose: Right.

480

00:53:35.140 --> 00:53:35.780

Tov Rose: Right.

481

00:53:35.780 --> 00:53:54.380

Bruce S.: And, you know, and it has been embedded in our society, you know, by, you know, such wonderful, enlightened organizations as the U.S. Department of Education, you know, pushed in with federal educational money. Since I was a fifth grader.

482

00:53:54.380 --> 00:53:55.440

Tov Rose: Right.

483

00:53:55.440 --> 00:53:58.170

Bruce S.: You know, and I'm 61 now, so that was a long time ago.

484

00:53:58.170 --> 00:53:58.700

Tov Rose: Yo.

485

00:53:59.390 --> 00:53:59.980

Tov Rose: Yep.

486

00:53:59.980 --> 00:54:10.279

Bruce S.: And so, I think what we're seeing is the natural… the natural outgrowth of a educational philosophy

487

00:54:10.670 --> 00:54:18.640

Bruce S.: You know, that was put forth by folks like Dr. Sidney Simon, the author of Values Clarification.

488

00:54:19.020 --> 00:54:34.949

Bruce S.: And one of the signatories of the humanist manifesto, you know, but the whole values clarification premise in education is that when a child enters kindergarten, they are insane.

489

00:54:36.770 --> 00:54:55.850

Bruce S.: You know, and that they're insane because they, you know, they've got their middle-class, white American parents, Judeo-Christian value system, and that the purpose of the school is to deprogram the child so the child can create their own value system, freed from all of the hang-ups that they're

490

00:54:56.060 --> 00:55:03.319

Bruce S.: You know, that they're, you know, the Judeo-Christian cultural hang-ups that they came in with.

491

00:55:03.720 --> 00:55:04.440

Tov Rose: Right.

492

00:55:05.040 --> 00:55:06.120

Bruce S.: Thank you.

493

00:55:06.120 --> 00:55:06.590

Tov Rose: Exactly.

494

00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:12.819

Bruce S.: You know, and so when you teach children that there are no moral absolutes.

495

00:55:13.860 --> 00:55:16.689

Bruce S.: That, you know, that they're, there, you know, that…

496

00:55:17.330 --> 00:55:36.009

Bruce S.: there is no… there is no, nothing that's inherently evil unless they decide… I mean, there's, you know, there's… there's no malam insight, just malam prohibitive, and if you choose not to prohibit it, then it's not evil, right? And so, if you decide… and so, ultimately, the…

497

00:55:36.410 --> 00:55:48.490

Bruce S.: the, the, the whole law of secular humanism is… Do what thou wilt.

498

00:55:50.560 --> 00:55:59.919

Bruce S.: Which happens to… which happens to… which happens to… to also be the same thing you're gonna find in Wiccanism.

499

00:56:00.530 --> 00:56:01.940

Tov Rose: It's the Satanic Bible, yeah.

500

00:56:01.940 --> 00:56:11.559

Bruce S.: And so, you know, what is secular humanism? Secular humanism is secular Satanism.

501

00:56:12.670 --> 00:56:19.120

Bruce S.: Okay, and, and, you know, the whole, you know, the whole…

502

00:56:19.470 --> 00:56:25.649

Bruce S.: Yeah, now this is… this is where I would, you know, chaplains and I would… would… would differ.

503

00:56:26.680 --> 00:56:30.700

Bruce S.: Okay, is, you know, you see a lot of chaplains who have

504

00:56:30.980 --> 00:56:37.969

Bruce S.: You know, major hang-ups with the… The gender confusion.

505

00:56:39.730 --> 00:56:51.950

Bruce S.: Or, you know, or gender identity issues that people have. You know, but the reality of it is that it's, in my view.

506

00:56:52.290 --> 00:56:53.890

Bruce S.: A religious expression.

507

00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:57.429

Bruce S.: Yeah, I wouldn't disagree at all, no.

508

00:56:57.680 --> 00:57:14.459

Bruce S.: It is a religious expression of the secular humanist, you know, sexual Satanism, the whole idea that rejects the notion of a creator god who made you male or female.

509

00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:22.700

Bruce S.: And therefore has a right to expect you to fulfill the roles that you were created with.

510

00:57:23.310 --> 00:57:36.100

Bruce S.: And therefore, when you reject the Creator God as God, and you make yourself God, and you decide that you are something other than the Creator God has made you.

511

00:57:36.880 --> 00:57:56.599

Bruce S.: And you declare that as your dogma, or as your doctrine, and you essentially say, I am my own God, I have made myself a different gender, and I have changed my name into something else, and you must acknowledge my Godhood.

512

00:57:56.810 --> 00:58:07.519

Bruce S.: by complying with my pronouncement, and when you say no, then they react to you as a true God would if you were a blasphemer.

513

00:58:07.520 --> 00:58:10.850

Tov Rose: That's right, yep. It does come across that way, yeah.

514

00:58:11.170 --> 00:58:18.370

Bruce S.: You know, and this sexual Satanism has sacraments that include the sacrifice of body parts.

515

00:58:19.550 --> 00:58:22.570

Bruce S.: I mean, you know, the whole… it is a religion.

516

00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:38.200

Bruce S.: And then when I say to the chaplain, hey, chaplain, what's your mission? Oh, well, we're here to facilitate the free exercise of religion. It's like, oh, great. So how are you doing that for the people who are worshiping themselves through their gender confusion?

517

00:58:39.140 --> 00:58:40.560

Tov Rose: Absolutely.

518

00:58:40.560 --> 00:58:41.669

Bruce S.: That's my impression.

519

00:58:43.180 --> 00:58:43.880

Tov Rose: I love it.

520

00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:48.330

Tov Rose: I love it. I love it.

521

00:58:48.330 --> 00:58:55.340

Bruce S.: You know, but, you know, but, you know, but again, this is, you know, this, this, this kind of comes in my, you know, in my role when I play cognitive dissident.

522

00:58:57.050 --> 00:59:04.529

Bruce S.: You know, of saying, look, you know, don't tell me that you are into facilitating the free exercise of religion.

523

00:59:06.110 --> 00:59:07.300

Bruce S.: Show me.

524

00:59:09.380 --> 00:59:20.800

Bruce S.: You know, are you only facilitating the free exercise of the religion of the particular, you know, man-made set of beliefs that you personally subscribe to or are endorsed by?

525

00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:21.360

Tov Rose: Right.

526

00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:32.790

Bruce S.: Because if you are, now we have a problem, because the whole premise behind the Army chaplaincy existing… I don't know if you're familiar with the…

527

00:59:33.020 --> 00:59:41.209

Bruce S.: the legal challenge to… to having an appropriated funded army chaplaincy, the, the case, Kentkoff v. Marsh.

528

00:59:41.560 --> 00:59:43.549

Tov Rose: Yep, I studied it a long time ago, yeah.

529

00:59:43.630 --> 00:59:49.850

Bruce S.: Right? You know, so if you look at Catkau versus Marsh, if you actually read the opinion.

530

00:59:52.020 --> 00:59:56.419

Bruce S.: The… the case was decided based on…

531

00:59:56.840 --> 01:00:06.090

Bruce S.: The merits of what was asked, but the judges opined that there was another aspect that was not put for them for decision.

532

01:00:06.250 --> 01:00:06.830

Tov Rose: Yeah.

533

01:00:06.830 --> 01:00:19.990

Bruce S.: You know, and they basically said, you know, look, you know, the issue is we're gonna decide that the chaplaincy is legal because when the, you know, because when the government

534

01:00:20.390 --> 01:00:23.040

Bruce S.: Take someone in military service.

535

01:00:23.670 --> 01:00:29.719

Tov Rose: And removes them physically from their ability to attend their local church.

536

01:00:30.520 --> 01:00:36.680

Bruce S.: mosque, or, or, or, you know, wherever they would worship.

537

01:00:37.850 --> 01:00:40.680

Bruce S.: As a function of their military service.

538

01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:46.249

Bruce S.: The government providing a place of worship and a leader for worship

539

01:00:48.470 --> 01:01:03.750

Bruce S.: is necessary for the government to be neutral to religion, okay? They must facilitate the free exercise of religion to the extent to which they impede the free exercise of religion.

540

01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:14.099

Bruce S.: But the judges said that if the government was to provide a place of worship, a leader for worship.

541

01:01:14.430 --> 01:01:21.539

Bruce S.: For a soldier who was stationed, you know, in a major urban area in

542

01:01:21.680 --> 01:01:33.239

Bruce S.: continental United States, where they were not restricted from worshiping, and where whatever type of worship they wanted is available within the local team meeting area.

543

01:01:33.350 --> 01:01:49.439

Tov Rose: that it would be an unconstitutional violation of the Establishment Clause, because it would be the government promoting religion in the absence of a government-imposed burden on the soldier's exercise of religion. Right.

544

01:01:49.970 --> 01:02:11.629

Bruce S.: And so the chaplaincy latched onto the… oh, of course, then the judges said, yeah, well, we're going to presume that the Army will, you know, would act in a way that circumspects so as not to transgress that and be improperly promoted. But that's not what the chaplaincy's done.

545

01:02:11.630 --> 01:02:15.609

Tov Rose: The chaplaincy has done exactly the way people.

546

01:02:16.990 --> 01:02:18.630

Bruce S.: twist scripture.

547

01:02:19.680 --> 01:02:24.240

Bruce S.: Okay, they… they take a verse out of context.

548

01:02:25.130 --> 01:02:32.410

Bruce S.: You know, and if they want to hear, you know, hey, shall we sin the more that grace may abound? Okay, stop.

549

01:02:34.540 --> 01:02:54.009

Bruce S.: Oh, yeah, let's in the war? The grace may abound. It says so, right in the Bible, right? Well, you know, the chaplaincy is an appropriated, funded entity properly established to facilitate the free exercise of religion, and therefore commanders have to give the chaplains all the money the chaplains want for whatever the chaplains want to do.

550

01:02:54.010 --> 01:02:55.319

Tov Rose: Right, right.

551

01:02:55.490 --> 01:03:01.200

Bruce S.: And our mission as the chaplaincy is to…

552

01:03:01.340 --> 01:03:10.599

Bruce S.: You know, in facilitating the free exercise of religion, is to ensure that they have a comprehensive religious program

553

01:03:10.890 --> 01:03:12.650

Bruce S.: At every Army garrison.

554

01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:18.300

Bruce S.: And I'm like, okay, so comprehensive measured how, right?

555

01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:19.630

Tov Rose: Exactly, right.

556

01:03:19.630 --> 01:03:30.179

Bruce S.: You know, does that mean that you need to have, you know, as many possible denominational services as you can, from as many different faiths as you can on every garrison?

557

01:03:30.180 --> 01:03:32.629

Tov Rose: Yeah, that's a lot of stuff, yeah.

558

01:03:32.790 --> 01:03:36.820

Bruce S.: And it's like, well… Why?

559

01:03:36.970 --> 01:03:46.790

Bruce S.: Okay, you know, I mean, I think back, it's like my first assignment was at, you know, Fort Bragg, then became Fort Liberty, now Fort Bragg again, right, in Fayetteville, North Carolina.

560

01:03:46.790 --> 01:03:55.599

Tov Rose: There's not… there's not a single religion or denomination that doesn't have at least 3 churches in Fayetteville.

561

01:03:57.960 --> 01:04:01.400

Bruce S.: You know, I…

562

01:04:02.220 --> 01:04:15.690

Bruce S.: nobody is restricted, you know, and most of the families are living off posting. Nobody's restricted from… you don't need to offer chaplain-led services in chapels on Fort Bragg.

563

01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:22.309

Bruce S.: Because there's no restriction. I said, on the other hand, you go to a training garrison, like…

564

01:04:22.630 --> 01:04:31.329

Bruce S.: Fort Jackson, where you've got… you've got folks who are in basic training or one-station unit training who are… who are not allowed to go off post.

565

01:04:32.010 --> 01:04:37.790

Bruce S.: during their, you know, their 8 to 16 weeks of basic training at AIT.

566

01:04:37.790 --> 01:04:41.120

Tov Rose: Right. Well, they are being restricted from.

567

01:04:41.310 --> 01:04:46.269

Bruce S.: weekly, regular exercise of religion, and therefore you MUST

568

01:04:46.670 --> 01:04:49.989

Bruce S.: My chaplains to provide services for them.

569

01:04:50.290 --> 01:04:50.810

Tov Rose: Right.

570

01:04:50.810 --> 01:04:51.890

Bruce S.: Right?

571

01:04:52.030 --> 01:05:03.730

Bruce S.: You know, or overseas, where you pick a soldier and their families up, and you stick them in Korea, or you stick them in Germany, or, you know, you stick them someplace where they can't find the faiths.

572

01:05:03.880 --> 01:05:14.209

Bruce S.: or in the language that they understand, or they're in a country where it's not safe to be congregating and worshiping off post. Let's say you're assigned to Turkey or someplace.

573

01:05:14.720 --> 01:05:32.859

Bruce S.: Then you need to provide on post for, you know, because you are restricting their exercise, right? And I'm like, well, so then I go back and I look at the Army regulations and the guidance for chaplains on planning and resourcing, and it's like, no, we're…

574

01:05:32.860 --> 01:05:41.860

Bruce S.: We're talking about every garrison chaplain's job is to coordinate the facilitation of free exercise religion by putting together a comprehensive

575

01:05:42.380 --> 01:05:44.880

Bruce S.: chaplain program. I'm like, no.

576

01:05:45.190 --> 01:05:49.190

Bruce S.: Yeah, where's the needs… where's the needs test?

577

01:05:49.430 --> 01:05:50.950

Tov Rose: Right. Before you plant.

578

01:05:51.050 --> 01:06:04.800

Bruce S.: Right. Right. You know, so again, I don't make too many friends amongst the, amongst the folks that I spent so many years supporting, because I ask uncomfortable questions.

579

01:06:04.850 --> 01:06:08.769

Tov Rose: As, you know, as… as somebody who…

580

01:06:08.770 --> 01:06:09.660

Bruce S.: Yes.

581

01:06:11.160 --> 01:06:14.799

Bruce S.: tries not to be, an Omian.

582

01:06:14.920 --> 01:06:23.829

Bruce S.: But, you know, there's, you know, there's, there's, there's moral law, but there's also the Constitution, and, and, and our…

583

01:06:24.510 --> 01:06:31.109

Bruce S.: You know, there are other structures of law under which we are, you know, we are supposed to follow.

584

01:06:31.520 --> 01:06:32.829

Tov Rose: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

585

01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:34.270

Tov Rose: Exactly.

586

01:06:34.490 --> 01:06:38.830

Bruce S.: And, you know, so, I mean, those are, I mean, those are the, those are the kinds of,

587

01:06:40.560 --> 01:06:44.519

Bruce S.: Yeah, you want to know a little bit about, you know, the craziness, you know?

588

01:06:44.520 --> 01:06:45.460

Tov Rose: Oh, I get it.

589

01:06:45.460 --> 01:06:49.980

Bruce S.: That's… About the craziness of my journey at this point?

590

01:06:49.980 --> 01:06:53.450

Tov Rose: Have you ever heard of Dr. David Allen Black?

591

01:06:54.030 --> 01:06:54.770

Bruce S.: No.

592

01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:57.689

Tov Rose: He was a Greek scholar, he's retired now.

593

01:06:58.720 --> 01:07:02.740

Tov Rose: He was… he was, in his day, very much a patriot.

594

01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:17.330

Tov Rose: One of his… he wrote a lot of books. Most of them are not in print, but if you could get a hold of one book, I would recommend his book called The Myth.

595

01:07:17.330 --> 01:07:17.630

Bruce S.: Oh.

596

01:07:17.930 --> 01:07:19.200

Tov Rose: adolescence.

597

01:07:19.690 --> 01:07:20.340

Bruce S.: Hmm.

598

01:07:20.970 --> 01:07:31.620

Tov Rose: He goes into the history, 1920s and 30s, of the communist infiltration of education and systems of government.

599

01:07:31.980 --> 01:07:33.020

Bruce S.: Hmm.

600

01:07:33.240 --> 01:07:37.710

Tov Rose: To… to practice their brand of social engineering.

601

01:07:40.750 --> 01:07:43.330

Bruce S.: Well, it seems that they were successful.

602

01:07:43.450 --> 01:07:44.330

Tov Rose: Very much so.

603

01:07:46.380 --> 01:07:52.169

Tov Rose: Yeah, it's really… it's really interesting to see the early documentation that he provides in that book.

604

01:07:52.170 --> 01:07:52.560

Bruce S.: Hmm.

605

01:07:52.560 --> 01:08:05.239

Tov Rose: solution for it as well, which is really good. I see Fernando joined us a while ago. He hasn't respon… I'll turn on his camera. You're probably just listening there, Fernando. Hello?

606

01:08:05.590 --> 01:08:20.019

Tov Rose: I'm gonna need to wrap this up today. I wanted to get… I wanted to touch base with both of you, so if you could let me know either here, or if you want to message me, either way. My idea with this was to meet maybe twice a week.

607

01:08:20.220 --> 01:08:36.740

Tov Rose: And… and then maybe have some texting and some messaging back and forth with any questions that come up. And I wanted to… I was originally thinking Monday and Tuesday, but my Mondays are kind of taken. So I wanted to see if there's another day other than Tuesday that might work for you guys.

608

01:08:37.109 --> 01:08:42.179

Tov Rose: That you might recommend. And of course, this is going to be recorded, so if you miss, it's okay.

609

01:08:43.710 --> 01:08:47.989

Tov Rose: But you don't have to get back to me right now, but if you wanted to message me and let me know, I would.

610

01:08:47.990 --> 01:08:53.980

Bruce S.: Well, I would, I would say, wednesdays are not good.

611

01:08:54.250 --> 01:08:54.880

Tov Rose: Okay.

612

01:08:56.069 --> 01:08:57.680

Tov Rose: Alright.

613

01:08:57.790 --> 01:08:59.109

Tov Rose: No.

614

01:08:59.770 --> 01:09:05.289

Bruce S.: Yeah, I have a… I have a, my one evening networking group.

615

01:09:06.229 --> 01:09:06.850

Bruce S.: Where I…

616

01:09:06.859 --> 01:09:07.499

Tov Rose: Okay.

617

01:09:07.500 --> 01:09:12.689

Bruce S.: try to… try to bring people together and pour into their lives is, is on Wednesday night.

618

01:09:13.120 --> 01:09:16.009

Tov Rose: Great. Don't want to interfere with that. Yeah.

619

01:09:19.210 --> 01:09:24.940

Bruce S.: But, I mean, this time is a good time slot. Okay. You know, but…

620

01:09:25.390 --> 01:09:28.029

Bruce S.: Open to… open to grabbing other days.

621

01:09:28.720 --> 01:09:34.980

Tov Rose: Okay, okay. Well, Thursday is also another very open time for me as a Saturday night, so…

622

01:09:35.689 --> 01:09:41.180

Tov Rose: in my schedule, those would be the best, but I could make other things work, if needed. Except for Monday.

623

01:09:44.330 --> 01:09:46.799

Bruce S.: Yeah, I mean, Thursday night, Saturday night.

624

01:09:46.910 --> 01:09:51.619

Bruce S.: For Saturday, Saturday, Saturday night, you know, this time?

625

01:09:52.439 --> 01:09:55.090

Bruce S.: At the same time would be good, you know.

626

01:09:55.090 --> 01:09:55.680

Tov Rose: Okay.

627

01:09:56.090 --> 01:09:57.620

Tov Rose: Okay.

628

01:09:58.190 --> 01:09:59.989

Tov Rose: Definitely. Yeah, let me…

629

01:09:59.990 --> 01:10:03.289

Bruce S.: You know, let's meet together on the first day of the week.

630

01:10:03.290 --> 01:10:06.280

Tov Rose: Exactly right.

631

01:10:09.370 --> 01:10:12.979

Tov Rose: I have no problem with that.

632

01:10:14.080 --> 01:10:17.509

Tov Rose: Apostle Paul did, somebody died that day, he wrote… he… he…

633

01:10:19.580 --> 01:10:21.259

Tov Rose: They raised them from the dead?

634

01:10:22.440 --> 01:10:24.490

Tov Rose: Great way to start your week, right?

635

01:10:24.490 --> 01:10:28.610

Bruce S.: It's a good way, yeah, good way to start your week, you know, having been raised from the dead, right?

636

01:10:30.460 --> 01:10:31.010

Tov Rose: Well, let's…

637

01:10:31.010 --> 01:10:37.080

Bruce S.: Whether it's, whether it's physically or, or, or, intellectually, it's, it's either way.

638

01:10:37.080 --> 01:10:37.850

Tov Rose: Right.

639

01:10:38.130 --> 01:10:57.570

Tov Rose: Okay, well, unless I hear otherwise from Fernando, I guess. Let's plan on that. I'll send out a… I'll send out an invitation for… for Saturday. And then, if you… seriously, if you have any other questions, things that come up you want to run by me, I can… during the week, I can prepare, or we can talk about those things the next time we meet as well.

640

01:10:57.670 --> 01:11:11.909

Tov Rose: I want to address any questions you have. I want to try to tailor this specifically to your questions as much as possible, and to make sure you get the… some kind of satisfactory answer. And if I don't have the answer, I'm happy to go find it and just simply say, I don't know. I've never researched it.

641

01:11:13.060 --> 01:11:19.939

Bruce S.: Yeah, yeah, no, I think once I get the hard copy book so that I can actually, you know, sit down and read.

642

01:11:20.730 --> 01:11:21.430

Bruce S.: No.

643

01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:22.340

Tov Rose: Yes.

644

01:11:22.340 --> 01:11:25.130

Bruce S.: and start making notes, then I'll have more questions.

645

01:11:25.410 --> 01:11:45.390

Tov Rose: Fair. If you get Jesus, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob first, I'd recommend that one, if you read that one first, if you can, because that will give you a good, solid foundation for where I come from with it. I teach canonical theology, that perspective, if you're looking for a terminology to go with it.

646

01:11:46.500 --> 01:11:48.410

Bruce S.: Canonical theology.

647

01:11:48.410 --> 01:11:52.990

Tov Rose: canonical theology. So, in a nutshell, that's…

648

01:11:53.640 --> 01:12:00.570

Tov Rose: The premise of canonical theology is it doesn't matter where all these diverse pieces of material came from.

649

01:12:02.060 --> 01:12:15.219

Tov Rose: it doesn't matter that they… that there was the, the… the priestly documents, or the scribal documents, and these other doc… the kingly documents, or whatever. What matters is somebody sat down.

650

01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:22.530

Tov Rose: ostensibly, Ezra the scribe for the Old Testament, put them all in a very specific order.

651

01:12:23.070 --> 01:12:26.279

Tov Rose: To… in which that order is theological.

652

01:12:27.220 --> 01:12:31.940

Tov Rose: And so, what is it that he was trying to teach us?

653

01:12:33.780 --> 01:12:43.329

Tov Rose: And the New Testament authors, at least through the first four books, the Gospels, follow that exact same theology.

654

01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:51.479

Tov Rose: intentionally. Whoever put the Gospels together did that intentionally. They connected it to

655

01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:56.930

Tov Rose: Ezra's version of the Old Testament. So, that's canonical theology, in a nutshell.

656

01:12:59.050 --> 01:13:05.610

Bruce S.: Okay, that makes sense. I can, I can… I can see how that… fits.

657

01:13:07.320 --> 01:13:16.289

Tov Rose: All right. Thanks for joining me. I appreciate your… your registering for the class, and thank you, Fernando. I don't see your face, but I trust that you're there.

658

01:13:17.630 --> 01:13:21.300

Bruce S.: Yeah, probably, probably still stuck in Zoom land, not recognized.

659

01:13:21.300 --> 01:13:22.020

Tov Rose: Yeah.

660

01:13:22.020 --> 01:13:24.939

Bruce S.: I'm not recognizing microphones or cameras yet.

661

01:13:24.940 --> 01:13:29.749

Tov Rose: Yeah, it could be. It could be. Shalom, shalom, Chris. Nice meeting you.

662

01:13:30.020 --> 01:13:31.970

Bruce S.: Alrighty. Likewise.

663

01:13:32.250 --> 01:13:33.750

Tov Rose: Thanks, have a good evening.

664

01:13:33.750 --> 01:13:34.510

Bruce S.: You too.

"How Rome's Administration of the Fiscus Judaicus Accelerated the Parting of the Ways between Judaism and Christianity"

This 289-page PhD thesis by Marius Heemstra (University of Groningen, 2009) examines how Roman policies surrounding the fiscus Judaicus (Jewish tax) under Emperors Domitian (81–96 CE) and Nerva (96–98 CE) accelerated the separation of Judaism and Christianity into distinct religions. Drawing on Roman, Jewish, and Christian sources, Heemstra argues that these fiscal measures created legal and social pressures that forced Jewish Christians to diverge from mainstream Judaism, influencing key New Testament texts. The thesis combines historical analysis of Roman taxation with reinterpretations of 1 Peter, Revelation, Hebrews, and the Gospel of John, emphasizing the interplay of persecution, identity, and theology.

Structure and Key Arguments

The thesis is divided into two parts, with an introduction posing the central question: "Who were the victims of the fiscus Judaicus under Domitian?"

Part I: The Roman Perspective – Fiscus Judaicus (Pages 7–112)

This section traces the tax's history and administration, focusing on its role in defining "Jewishness" and its impact on Jews and Christians.

• Chapter 1: Introduction and General History (Pages 9–24) Introduced by Vespasian after the Temple's destruction in 70 CE, the tax replaced the half-shekel Temple tribute, redirecting it to Jupiter's temple in Rome. It applied to all ethnic Jews aged 3–62 (women) or 20–62 (men). Evidence from Egyptian ostraka (receipts) and synagogue records shows synagogues aided Roman officials in identifying taxpayers, as they had for the pre-70 Temple tax.
• Chapter 2: Domitian's Harsh Administration (Pages 25–72) Under Domitian's financial reforms, the tax was enforced rigorously (acerbissime). Suetonius (Dom. 12.2) and Cassius Dio (Rom. Hist. 67.14.1–2) describe prosecutions of two groups: (1) non-Jews "living a Jewish life without professing it" (e.g., God-fearers, Gentile Christians), punishable by property seizure and execution for "atheism" (rejecting Roman gods); and (2) Jews concealing origins (e.g., apostates, Jewish Christians, proselytes), punishable by confiscation. Circumcision inspections in court determined liability. Heemstra concludes mixed Christian communities (Jews and Gentiles) were prime targets, explaining reports of Christian persecution under Domitian (e.g., in Eusebius). Jewish Christians were treated as tax-evading Jews, while Gentile Christians faced atheism charges.
• Chapter 3: Nerva's Reform (Pages 73–92) Nerva's coin inscription "FISCI IVDAICI CALVMNIA SVBLATA" ended false accusations, redefining taxpayers as those "practicing ancestral Jewish customs" (per Cassius Dio). This religious criterion excluded apostates and Jewish Christians (especially in mixed groups), stripping them of legal "Jewish" status. Christianity became a distinct, illegal "superstition" spreading "Jewish atheism" among non-Jews, aligning Roman and Jewish definitions of "Jew" and resolving tensions.
• Chapter 4: Christian Crimes and Punishments from Nero to Domitian (Pages 93–112) Under Nero (64 CE), Christians were scapegoated for arson, punished as arsonists (not for faith). 1 Peter reflects local harassment of Gentile Christians post-70 CE. Domitian's tax enforcement enabled systematic persecution: Jewish Christians as tax evaders, Gentiles as atheists. By Trajan (Pliny's letter, Ep. 10.96–97), mere confession of "Christianity" sufficed for execution, erasing ethnic distinctions.

Part II: The New Testament Perspective – Revelation, Hebrews, and John (Pages 113–212)

This part rereads these texts against the fiscus backdrop, arguing they reflect Domitian's pressures and Nerva's reforms, urging Jewish Christians to embrace a distinct identity.

• Chapter 5: Revelation and the Fiscus Judaicus (Pages 115–148) Dated to Domitian's late reign, Revelation depicts varied punishments (imprisonment, exile, execution) mirroring tax-related prosecutions. Letters to the seven churches (Rev. 2–3) show tensions with Judaism ("synagogue of Satan"), distancing Christian communities. The 144,000 (from Israel) and multitude (from nations) in Rev. 7 highlight ethnic distinctions amid Roman scrutiny.
• Chapter 6: Hebrews – Jewish Christians and the Fiscus (Pages 149–178) Written as a sermon post-96 CE for Jewish Christians in Rome, Hebrews addresses apostasy temptations. Heb. 10.32–34 echoes Domitian's confiscations and possible inspections (theatrizomenoi as public humiliation). Nerva's reform threatened their status, prompting the author to argue the "new covenant" supersedes the old, discouraging return to Judaism for tax exemption.
• Chapter 7: Jewish Identity – Fiscus, Birkat ha-Minim, and John (Pages 179–212) Domitian's ethnic criterion clashed with Jewish views, prompting the birkat ha-minim (curse against heretics, ca. 90 CE under Gamaliel II) to exclude Jewish Christians (per Mishnah m. Sanh. 10.1: those denying "Torah from Heaven"). Nerva's religious definition harmonized this, expelling them from "Israel's congregation" (aposynagōgos). John's Gospel (ca. 100 CE) legitimizes this marginalized group, emphasizing "Messiah from Heaven" vs. "Torah from Heaven." Dual rejections (by "own people" and "world") and negative "Jews" reflect ethnic-to-religious shift.

Chapter 8: Parting of the Ways (Pages 213–236)

Heemstra surveys the debate (e.g., Dunn, Alexander, Lieu, Becker/Reed), critiquing views of a gradual, "complex" process. He argues for a pivotal break in 96 CE: Jewish exclusion via birkat and Roman redefinition severed Jewish Christians from Judaism, forming proto-orthodox Christianity with Gentiles. This "formal" parting enabled later interactions but defined distinct identities. The fiscus catalyzed this, often overlooked in scholarship.

Overall Thesis and Contributions

Heemstra's core argument: Domitian's harsh tax enforcement targeted mixed communities, treating Jewish Christians as tax evaders and Gentiles as atheists. Nerva's reform formalized separation by redefining "Jew" religiously, aligning with Jewish leaders and marginalizing Jewish Christians. This accelerated the "parting," reflected in NT texts urging theological independence. The thesis bridges Roman fiscal history with early Christian/Jewish identity, challenging gradualist models and emphasizing 96 CE as decisive.

Bibliography (pages 237–269), Dutch summary (pages 255–260 in internal numbering, but 270–275 in PDF), and indexes follow. The preface highlights interdisciplinary integration of Roman, Jewish, and Christian histories.

Download the full dissertation next